Welcome to episode #89 of The PPC Show where we interview the best and brightest in paid marketing. This week we're joined by Ben Childs, President of Digital Reach agency, to get a better understanding of what it's like running a B2B SaaS demand gen agency.
- What B2B marketing trends do we need to be aware of
- What tactics are working really well for generating demand? Any new ones or is the same ones?
- Winning over the BBDM
- The metrics we should be tracking as a B2B marketer
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Show Notes and Transcript
JD Prater: Ben, welcome to The PPC Show.
Ben Childs: Thank you for having me JD.
JD Prater: Yeah man, really excited to have you here because we're in person. Ben is right here in AdStage HQ. But before we get going too much further give us a quick who you are and what you got going on.
Ben Childs: Yes. So my name is Ben Childs. I'm the president of Digital Reach Agency. So we're an inbound digital firm that works with exclusively B2B, SaaS and tech companies. So, that's why I'm here at AdStage, have a close relationship and I think we work on a lot of similar things. So we have about 30 people on a remote team dispersed nationwide. So, it's really beneficial because I can just get great talent at great non San Francisco price.
JD Prater: Yeah, no joke man. San Francisco does have some high pricing that is for sure we like to pay people out here because the cost of living is just ridiculous.
Ben Childs: If you can make 120k and pay your rent more power to you.
JD Prater: Seriously. That's why I live in Oakland. So fantastic, we're going to have a great show for you guys out there listening. We're going to talking some B2B, SaaS, demand gen. So you B2C commerce people ...
Ben Childs: There'll be lessons.
JD Prater: There'll be some lessons but just know we're going to talking B2B demand gen. Before we get going man, I would love to just kind of learn more about how you got started and where you are kind of like hoping to go in the next couple years.
How Ben got his start
Ben Childs: Yeah definitely. So I got started like a lot of people at just kind of a really small, honestly kind of a chop shop agency where I was making 120 dials a day trying to sign up like super small mom and pop companies, and they charged a huge set up fee and then they really didn't care if people stayed, they were just trying to cash checks. I don't mind saying that because they're not around anymore for obvious reasons.
After about a year I kind of looked in the mirror and I was like I got to stop doing this. So didn't really have a lot of job offers because I was an English major that graduated in 2009 which is about the worst major in the worst year to ever graduate. So I said I know how to do one thing so I just started. I went to Radio Shack, plugged a Magic Jack into my computer, got one of those like a legitimate hang up old tiny phones and just started calling small businesses and went from there, signed people up and it was onward and upward.
JD Prater: Nice, nice. For those who don't know, so my wife is also an English major in 2009. She actually has a decent job as well. And so, we can do it. I was a history major so more power to ...
Ben Childs: I had to start down. This is America.
JD Prater: It's America, right. But hey, we can do it, Arts and Humanities for the wins. So cool man. Let's kind if jump into some of the things. You're a B2B agency, really working in SaaS, really working in tech, based here in San Francisco. So you're like front lines man. You were seeing things and the trends come up faster than a lot of us can even keep up with. Really when you compare it, feel like maybe a lot of across the U.S., right? This is really where a lot of things happened.
So, what are some things that you think we need to be aware of when we think about B2B demand gen, what are some trends that you're seeing crop up, anything that we should have on our radar.
B2B demand gen trends
Ben Childs: Some of this is going to be demand gen in particular. Some of it's going to be just working with B2B clients because that's what a lot of my role is. I think it's beneficial whether you work at an agency or in-house to learn how to do that. So, just kind of service wise or discipline wise I think you're seeing a lot of ABM, so account based marketing. So that's one of the benefits of being in San Francisco is I'm going to the Demand Base Summit, I'm going to the TOPO Summit. A lot of people go to Sirius Decisions and Dreamforce but I'm going to some ABM specific conferences. Every client that I have has ABM software rattling around whether they use it or they don't.
So, really I define ABM as not spending a dollar on someone who won't be your client. So in terms of what we do with SEO, SEM, web development, marketing automation, CRM, we have to always keep that in mind that at the end of the day, we have to show the client the money and the fact that we had influence on accounts that they actually care about. We just had a conversation this morning, we brought you all this great SEO traffic, yada, yada, yada. Well, you can't really do that anymore, you have to actually drive it back to how it helped both enclose one revenue and then how it helped in terms of influencing their top accounts.
JD Prater: Yeah, that one, I'd love to spend more time on. Let's dive into that one with ABM. I mean we see it all the time cropping up left and right. There's lots of software tools now that are just focused on this account based marketing. LinkedIn even in their ads platform has this ABM type of solution for really going after. So whenever you're thinking about like tactics are you're really trying to think about implementing this, what are some of your like go to networks or even just kind of like play books that you like to go in to implement?
ABM tactics to deploy and go-to ad networks
Ben Childs: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny that you mention that because when we talk to people about their ABM strategy, the only real solution to a lot of the problems is software. So, when you're kind of cordoning your strategy, it's not a question of what you're doing, it's a question of what software is going to fill in what you need to do. What are you missing from your tech stack. So, a lot of what we're doing is cleaning up CRM data, making sure that everything is tracking correctly because if you're B2C and you have a three minute sales cycle where someone signs up with their credit card, pretty obvious, if you're working with a year long sales cycle, you really need to go in and make sure you have clean data.
From ad network perspective we love LinkedIn because we can target people by a persona. We work with big data company that works in AWS, manipulating things and EC2 with automated bidding. Took me two hours to figure out what they actually do. CMO had to say it a couple times over and over again but now that we know that we know exactly who they're advertising for and those people aren't picking up the phone. Those people, you can't exactly knock on their door. So just targeting them exclusively in LinkedIn has been a really big benefit. You kind of spread it around several networks and just see what happens.
JD Prater: Do you have any advice for companies like that are-
Ben Childs: Excuse me, see what happens in a targeted tested way, not just shotgun budget.
JD Prater: There you go. You've got to have that targeted tested way for ABM.
Ben Childs: We used to do that where we threw it up in the air.
JD Prater: I think everyone's still doing it and I'd say a majority of us still are, right?
Ben Childs: I think if you're running a good paid campaign you should probably have about 10% of your ad spend just kind of tossed up to see which way the wind blows. That's the best way to scale it. That's the best way to figure out how to not go to a network. So I think that's one thing that, especially people that are in-house miss is you can get so granular in terms of the metrics that lead to your KPI's. Sometimes I think when you're talking to the big bosses, there is some education that needs to happen around this is a test we're doing for this month. I'm sorry if this money gets lit on fire. But, this is how it works.
I think if you're running a good paid campaign you should probably have about 10% of your ad spend just kind of tossed up to see which way the wind blows.
JD Prater: Yeah and I'll touch on that one in just a second because I think that's a really good one to kind of pick back up on as far as like testing goes and networks go. But with ABM, a question that I had for you was are there certain types of companies that it works better in? Do you see that like merely you should be enterprise or do you think every B2B should like approach their tactics that way?
Do you think every B2B should use ABM
Ben Childs: You need a high ticket sale. The goal is to have essentially less leads but way better leads that convert at higher prices and the delta in the both decrease in kind of the incoming as well as the delta in the increase in terms of the average contract value needs to make sense. So if your ACV is like less than 30 grand for 12 months, you definitely shouldn't be doing it. You can do it lightly. You can get something like Engagio or SalesLoft which does kind of advance sales plays. That's just becoming really table stakes to be doing sales anyway. But in terms of throwing it all out and redoing your entire program, not everybody can or should do it.
So if your ACV is like less than 30 grand for 12 months, you definitely shouldn't be doing it.
JD Prater: Cool, cool. Let's touch on this now. So we talked about some experimental budgets. One thing I've always kind of subscribed to is the 70-20-20. 70% we know it's going to work, it's tried and true. We've got like 20% where we're going to be doing some testing with. And then 10% is like experimental. We have no idea, light it on fire. It could just completely suck but it allows us to test new platforms. Especially, I was just at SMX Advance a couple weeks ago a man, like everyone's talking about diversifying budgets.
Diversifying budgets to get better results
Ben Childs: Yup, that's another thing you have to contend with. For us, there's a push and pull with every agency of doing what you're good at but satisfying clients needs and wants. And so, that's one thing you need to take into account is it's not like it used to be where there was like this is your AdWords budget, this is your SEO budget, this is your email and marketing budget. Really the way it should have always worked but now we're really getting the type of infrastructure to go after that is all these budgets are fluid. If you have 22 options you don't just do SEO by default. Maybe you take an educated look at it and you're like you know what, we should just put this money on Twitter. Like there's an opportunity cost for everything.
To your point, figuring out what those networks are that you should move away from and go to. This is actually, we talked earlier about metrics. One of my favorite metrics across any pay channel is going to be our impression share. I think that it's underrated because in terms of your 70-20-10, we can look at keyword optimizations, we can look at your messaging, we can look at all these things. If at the end of the day you put them all up on the whiteboard and you say oh, AdWords is performing best for us and you don't mention that you have a 50% impression share, you're going to make some bad decisions as opposed to just shoving more money into AdWords.
AdWords is performing best for us and you don't mention that you have a 50% impression share, you're going to make some bad decisions as opposed to just shoving more money into AdWords.
JD Prater: Got you. I like that one. That's a good hot take. I like it. Whenever you can to think through that ... So you mentioned like SEO, and some other things that you also mentioned, you talked about a close won revenue. Do you see that as, definitely B2B SaaS people, I know I'm starting to feel this pressure as well. It's like marketers are being held to lower funnel metrics. It's like leads don't cut it anymore. Do you feel that with your clients as well?
You gotta deeper than MQLs, ROI is what matters
Ben Childs: Yeah, some of our favorite clients have talked their bosses out of not doing that. I love it, I love it. They're like after the lead, I don't care and it's like great, this is going to be awesome. With the fluid budgets that we're talking about comes the responsibility of what's making us money. And so that is a whole can of worms in terms of the implications of that. Obviously ABM is created out of that but in terms of what you guys do at AdStage and something that we focus on is we can show someone ...
What happened is we're working with a hardware company that was in, I think they're in Redwood City and we're doing great. We showed them all these increases and conversions and decreases in cost per clicks, across AdWords, across LinkedIn. We showed up in the meeting, put up a great Excel spreadsheet on the wall and said look at all this stuff. And he was just like, "Okay, yeah, but this cell is blank." We were like, what. And he was like, "How much money did we make?" We were like, "Oh, it's not about that, it's about the leads." And he's like, "Yeah, I'm going to walk in this board meeting and get fired. We spent like 200k this quarter and I don't have a gigantic budget but like what can I tell them." And we're just like, oh, and then we got fired, deservedly so.
JD Prater: Dang, wow.
Ben Childs: That really opened our eyes in terms of like, yeah, the CEO is not like looking at SEO with a warm fuzzy feeling. He needs to make money for his next round of funding, for their shareholders. They're not looking at leads and saying wow, good job guys, this doesn't make us money but we love you.
JD Prater: That's something that ultimately we're hoping help marketers with.
Ben Childs: Definitely, yeah.
JD Prater: This is something we're trying to help with AdStage is being able to visualize that data quicker but also going deeper into those funnel metrics. It's getting there.
Ben Childs: I went down to Google itself and talked to my Google reps and they brought in a couple of people because that's something that we focus on as an agency. And they're working to help companies focus on downstream, because they've never really done that before. They have Salesforce for AdWords but they had an initiative like several years ago where for like e-commerce companies and B2C, you could figure out not just your ROI but your return on as spend. So there's diminishing returns as you spend more but can they do the math for you that shows you there's more profit in general if that's what you're interested in.
They don't have that for B2B. We were talking about that because they realized that the only way to get B2B advertisers to spend more is to show them those downstream metrics and help them make decisions based on them. Google is learning that.
JD Prater: Good. Give us a couple weeks.
Ben Childs: Then they switched into trying to upsell all my clients on spend and I was like this is why I don't come down here.
JD Prater: This is why, that's why. Bid more, upsell.
Ben Childs: Haven't talked to them in three years and this is why.
JD Prater: This is why. Well let's talk about something else that we were talking about like before the show started and you kind of I touched on this. Whenever you're going into these big meetings and you've got these decision makers in the room, how do you guys approach that? I know that we were talking about it earlier but I'd love to hear your general thoughts. I think you called them BBDMs.
Winning over the BBDM
Ben Childs: BBDMs are big boss decision makers. So, it could be anyone from the, really, it's who has the final decision and often not always, they're very smart. They went to Harvard but they're relatively uneducated in terms of what you're doing. That's me if I could complain for a minute and give excuses, I will. But even if you're in-house somewhere, this is an extrapolation of the choices that they can make with their budget is they need to know why. You can't just show up and do your dance of here's how SEO works, here's how PPC works. They don't care they just need to know why. And you could show them what it will get them. Obviously, you may have some type of access to their downstream metrics, you can't promise things with different services but you need to understand their strategy enough and where they're coming enough to say why.
Now, that can be difficult because kind of just taking a 90 degree turn here, navigating bureaucracy for some of these large companies are something that we're really focused on because we can be the best in the world at PPC. We just did a kind of a count wide health check and realized that the biggest problem we have in SEO is just navigating the client's bureaucracy to get changes made, to get access to things, to get things approved. Again, if I may make some excuses here for a minute, we have our own problems but in terms of getting domain expertise, that's something that we're really focused on.
So, we can be as good as another agency but if we can actually explain to your board what's happening, explain to the BBDM, the part of the excel sheet and make them a super awesome PowerPoint, that's a skill that I think even in-house people can benefit from because you can have the best marketing plan in the world. I was just talking with a contact who's going to leave our company because she's tried getting a new website, new initiatives. They hired her for a digital strategy and they won't do anything that she says so she's doing nothing.
And so we were working with her pitching digital initiatives to her BBDM but she's in-house, she's not an agency. Even she has to do that.
JD Prater: Yeah that's a really tough one. There's something I didn't fully understand until I met Mr. Matt Umbro at Hanapin, he's the associate director there. If you read any of his blogs, his blogs nearly 90% of them are focused on client services. It was something that kind of like ...
Ben Childs: Wil Reynolds shares a lot of that.
JD Prater: He's fantastic as well. He's another one of my, like, it was a switch. For me it was like, no, but I'm like the smartest guy in Facebook and AdWords. But if you can't get it across the goal line you're not a score. You need to be able to put up those points and that was something that I was able to learn from Matt Umbro and take away from Matt with my time at Hanapin and even still now reading his blogs it's like there is an art and science to client services and getting your initiative across the goal line.
Ben Childs: Yeah, and I think for a lot of digital marketers they wish that what they did existed in a vacuum with perfect conditions where it was just the beautiful art of them in the spreadsheet. Everything you do is working with people. And so, you need to calibrate where they're at. You need to figure out what you're, you need to frag figure out what you're really doing for them. AdWords isn't AdWords, it's an ends to a mean. That's where you say you know what, maybe you shouldn't do AdWords, even if it means firing us, this isn't going to help you.
Now, that never fails because they go oh, I trust you, what else can you do. Because you show that unlike other companies you are there to serve them.
JD Prater: Got you. Well let's do a couple question I got for you. So, when you think about creating demand, when you think about generating it, what are some tactics that are working really well for you guys? Are they new ones, are they the same ones with a twist? And then we'll get into gating content versus not gating content, I always love that debate as well.
How to create and generate demand
Ben Childs: Yeah, I think the big thing for us right now is audiences. So really lacing audiences kind of across different networks and getting very granular. You're seeing companies like Demandbase or actually AdRoll just split up into tow companies, RollWorks and AdRoll. So you're seeing their B2B software coming out, their platform. And so, getting very deep on audience targeting down to maybe even who this person is. Unfortunately for Google, like you look at their display network and it's kind of a joke compared to that.
And so I think that's one of the reasons why Google brought me down there other than to upsell all my clients is they're trying to figure that out because I think they realize in the B2B space they're just several years behind. So, lacing targeting and then like always just software, getting that software. That's often, like we said with ABM, you kind of need some money to get in the door for that. You're not just going to buy Demandbase on a lark but definitely that's the next step in terms of that type of targeting.
JD Prater: Yeah, we've done, so Terminus also kind of a similar like ABM type of solution and Sangram, I guess now, I guess he was CMO now he's just evangelist. But, he said this one thing and it's always kind of stuck with me. And then he said it about a year ago. And he said, engagement is the new form fill. What are your thoughts on that?
Engagement is the new form fill
Ben Childs: So, we're talking about gated content. And so, I love gated content because give me the lead, get it in the CRM, show them to the BBDM and say I got this lead. What is probably better but you need more buy-in from the company is getting the things that will show engagement on account base perspective. So that's things like Lead Forensics, KickFire, now whatever leads to or you know even Marketo notifications or something like that. If it shows that someone is on your site, you know, look, I love form fills but at that point who cares. From an ABM perspective, bump it to your sales team, give them a call right now and let's get it done. Why do you need to like nurture them in a funnel.
So in a sense I love gated content but if we're actually kind of able to get as coordinated as possible in an ABM perspective you don't need it.
JD Prater: In an ABM world I already have your contact, I have your email, I have your company, I have your company size. Why do I need you to fill out this form. And so, I like that argument around, hey man, as long as you're seeing my ads, you're interacting with my ads or you are interacting with my content and I know that, I don't need you to fill out this form. And so it was one of those like, huh, I don't know.
Ben Childs: There's a lot less friction now. Like we're working with a company and they have a really cool test where you enter your IP address and they tell you the health of all these things. They're like yeah, I don't know. We're trying to do ABM but we don't know how to do it. I was like, dude, they just gave you their IP address. Like you can just do reverse IP and look up right now using KickFire. And they're like what does that give me. And it's like every single piece of technographic data you'd ever want to know about this company. Wait what? It's like those type of simple things. It used to have gazillion things on the form field but now it's like well if they have your domain they can literally tell you everything about them. You don't even need to do that because certainly you've bought that data somewhere. If you haven't bought that data somewhere like let's sit down and figure out how ABM works together.
JD Prater: Especially integrating like messenger bots with clear bit. And again, you're using all this stuff to personalize websites and messages. That is definitely like that in my opinion the future of marketing and we're getting more personalized in this ABM kind of work.
Ben Childs: Form fills may mean something different. If you use something like drift for chat, someone starts interacting with chat and that's a defacto form fill out. Now that's bumping the sales and they're getting a call pretty soon. Drift integrates with AMB pretty well. There's obviously a lot of choices, I know you guys use Intercom.
JD Prater: Intercom.
Ben Childs: We're a Drift partner agency. But there's just a lot of things that are way more top of the funnel than a form fill out that you don't need because you're just looking for that type of, any type of intent. It used to be binary. They filled out your gated content or they did it. Now, with lead scoring you can get way more variables, none of which have to be tremendously a lot about funnel. So if someone's interacted with you 15 times for very low value things I think it's time to give them a call.
JD Prater: Yeah, I think it's time. You know, it's like, I hit your website, I saw that pricing page, I came back the next day, look at that pricing page again and you're like ...
Ben Childs: I might be interested. We do that. We're not built out, we don't really have a sales team. It's just I get a slack notification if someone of interest has just gone to the website.
JD Prater: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Ben Childs: We don't need to do gated content.
JD Prater: I think if I might get some, about our conversation here, we talked a lot about software. We talked a lot about the tools. So I'm going to ask you your favorite tools for mark tech here in a second. We also talked about different strategies with this ABM type of marketing and really understanding who the audience is that we're going after, not spending a dollar on unqualified types of people. The last one is we really went deep with like funnel metrics. Like those three things would you say yes, those are the three things that I see as the future for like B2B SaaS.
Ben Childs: Can we do one at a time?
JD Prater: Yeah. Let's do first one.
Ben Childs: Start over.
B2B agency software and Martech stack
JD Prater: Software. So let's let's talk about mark tech stack and what are some of your favorite tools.
Ben Childs: So the first question that I always ask people is just be honest with yourself. I love Marketo. I think if you're going to do big boy ABM, something like Marketo is probably something that I would recommend almost every time. Now, the problem is if you overbuy with something like Marketo you're using it like MailChimp but paying for Marketo. So, we work with a lot of funded startups and they're like, oh, don't worry, we bought Marketo because I think it's putting their big boy pants on and becoming a real company that like handles their marketing automation. And so with anything you buy, realize it's not the platform, it's the ... the platform doesn't do the work, it's there to express your knowledge of what the work is through that platform.
So, kind of taking a little off topic is I was looking at landing page builders that we would be using and it was between Instapage and Unbounce. We chose Instapage and they brought me in to talk about the choice and I was like you know, Instapage was almost so cheap as to be disqualifying in my book. I just thought I should pay for the Cadillac and realized I was making that exact same mistake. And they were like what percentage of Instapage's capabilities would you say are you using right now. I was like, uh, you got me. It's just a platform to express what you're doing. So, I recommend Marketo to anyone who's actually honest with themselves and saying we're going to use this, I'm going to develop a lot of time and education to it. For other people maybe something easier like HubSpot, I know we talk about Autopilot and we have a lot of clients on, it's just for example.
So really diving deep into that marketing automation and then clean your data in Salesforce. If you clean your data in Salesforce and get that fixed, what you can do with it, you have more trust in but it also becomes more obvious. That makes sense?
Marketers getting into CRMs
JD Prater: Yeah, which bleeds perfectly. So point two around thinking deeper funnel metrics. Marketers are getting into CRMs now. I still have marketer friends that are like, I'm not touching CRMs, I don't even know what that is, what that looks like. What are your thoughts around that?
Ben Childs: We take over for agencies all the time that not only don't track it but they don't want to. It brings a sort of transparency into what's going on and then accountability to metrics maybe they're not interested in. Just the basics that we would do is just customize a report that goes conversions, MQLs, SQLs or SALs, or opportunity, opportunity, revenue and then closed one and closed one revenue. So you just make a basic waterfall or a basic funnel, we just do it in Excel and then you show those changes over time and you can tab it up into different sources and channels. You guys do something similar in a much more prettier way.
I think the question was funnel metrics. Oh, I think one of the things that's important even if someone's doing ABM or not and maybe even more important if they're not doing ABM is having the person working on the marketing and tracking the marketing that understands what sales is doing. The sales understand what marketing is doing. So this is always the kind of pushback that happens where sales doesn't talk to marketing and marketing gets leads and sales says they're not good enough, I need better leads. Marketing says these are great leads you can't close them.
We had a situation where we were tracking a bunch of different goals for a client and one of the assets would get to MQL and then be totally qualified. But none of them would convert to an opportunity. And so we were going to get fired. But, my strategist working on the account, this is the benefit of only working with B2B companies is because he just kind of saw it immediately was like, okay, we're looking at this waterfall. What's your follow up on this ebook. And they're like, oh, our sales team doesn't follow up on it. They don't want to, let's do top of funnel. And it's like okay, great, we have that out in the open, how does that affect our strategy. It's like if you can do that and sit across the table from them as an agency and have the domain expertise to know what they're doing, what they're accountable for, what you are doing for them, it's just orders of magnitudes greater.
And if agencies aren't doing that, they'll either have to figure out how to do it soon or just focus on B2C in e-commerce.
Top 2 takeaways for B2B marketers
JD Prater: Or come to you guys which is a perfect segue. So let's wrap up here with what are some maybe one or two takeaways from a lot of the things that we've talked about if you could just say this is what I wish you got out of this talk and then where can people find you.
Ben Childs: Yeah, so the big thing for me and I'm the president so I deal a little less in the day to day but the big thing for me is navigating the bureaucracies of your clients or if you're in-house of the companies that you work for. Again, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You need to actually show what you did to who matters and get their buy-in and that can be a really, really big differentiator between you and another agency who who knows, could be better at SEO than you but the BBDM was like, yeah, I hated those guys.
JD Prater: Very true, it happens all the time.
Ben Childs: Again, kind of like the Marketo analogy they just weren't able to express how good they are in a certain discipline because they couldn't get anybody to do what they wanted.
The other is to look more holistically. So I started as a PPC firm. In two weeks it'll be seven years ago. And really every single service that we've added has been and at the request of our current clients. And so as we niched into more and more B2B, our services grow from there. Now, there's the ever present kind of Faustian bargain of how much do you serve your clients versus how much do you get outside of what you're good at. So I've always tried to kind of go late into those services just to make sure I don't screw it up or do it for free for a couple clients, just ask for a case study. If you've screwed something up for them just toss it at them and say you'll do it for free.
So those are the two things and they're kind of outside of the tactics of LinkedIn or the tactics of AdWords. Know who you're talking to, get buy-in from who matters, don't show the PowerPoint to the director and all the sudden the CMO jumps in and it's just like what the heck I wasn't involved. Happens all time. And then just realize where you fit in the ecology of the 21 different vendors they have or the 30 different tech stack software rolling around, three of which does the same thing.
So, those are my two takeaways and then yeah, www.digitalreachagency.com. Ben@digitalreachagency.com. Love to chat.
JD Prater: All right. Well thanks Ben. I really appreciate your time walking us through B2B SaaS, where we are. Giving us a great landscape of not only like where we are but like what the future could hold for agencies and for in-house teams, how to get that buy-in. So really appreciate you stopping by and hanging out with us on the PPC Show.
For all those listening, go check it out, digitalreachagency.com. And then you can email Ben at Ben@digitalreachagency.com. So thanks again man and for all those listening, we'll see you guys next week.