The PPC Show

How Blockchain Technology is Radically Changing the Future of Advertising

Welcome to episode #92 of The PPC Show where we interview the best and brightest in paid marketing. This week we're joined by James Tabor, CEO of MEDIA Protocol to talk about about blockchain technology, data, ad fraud, and developing better relationships between consumers, advertisers, and publishers.

Tune in to learn:

  • How to utilize consumer data - through content engagement - to help better inform ad spend
  • How blockchain is better and more secure than traditional advertising as data will be kept safe through the ledger
  • How blockchain technology could improve the relationship between consumers and advertisers

As always you can find us on: Apple PodcastsSpotifyStitcher, OvercastSoundcloud, & Tunein Radio.

Listen to the episode


James Tabor

James Tabor is the CEO of blockchain company Media Protocol. James has over over ten years’ professional experience in advertising and commercial rights. Since 2011, James has helped to found several data analysis startups focused on using technology to bring clarity to the huge amount of data used to communicate with consumers, and change the way that media and advertising works.

Show notes and transcript

JD Prater:                     James, welcome to The PPC Show.

James Tabor:                Thanks for having me JD, great to be here.

JD Prater:                     Yeah, you are fresh off of speaking at some tech crunch so I'm excited that you were able to make some time for us on the podcast. But before we kind of dive into some really fun topics, why don't you give us a quick bio, and where you've been, where you're going and what you're working on.

James Tabor on Creating MEDIA Protocol

James Tabor:                Sure, so my name's James Tabor, I'm the CEO of MEDIA Protocol. I started my career about 15 years ago selling billboards, so big posters by the side of the roads. And I then went and started working digital and commercial rights, working for ad networks. I worked with people like the Beckham's and Andy Murray. And then around eight, nine years ago I actually left the industry because I was getting frustrated with how difficult it was to plan by and understand how advertising is actually performing.

                                    So I started building technology companies, and I'll give you the bullshit bingo score card of my career is now complete because about seven or eight years ago we started doing big data before it was called big data. Actually, what we were doing was sort of like pre-cognition optimization, which is quite out there, AI machine lining and that was before AI became a shorthand for a failed big data project. And then when we discovered, especially the ethereum protocol, Blockchain became the missing piece of the puzzle.

                                    So we'd found with pre-op data trying to create this sort of direct to consumer relationship between brands and content creators, there was always these sort of fuzzy edge cases you'd get to where there'd be question marks. Where you'd go great, I've got the data, I have the analytics, I've got predictive analytics, what can we do, how do we get people to do what they say they're gonna do?

Blockchain and the Smart Contract and MEDIA Protocol

                                    So that is what you can use Blockchain for is we've got the smart contract. Now what MEDIA Protocol does is re-imagines the entire way that we both promote, interact with, and then pay for content on the internet. So yourself as a performance marketeer, you know that when you're trying to get people to come to you, your content, all your content has a URL. What you're doing is your driving people towards these URLs. And the challenge is, we have to go through centralized entities whose business model is to have your money and the consumer's data or interactions, and kind of never the twins shall meet. They're really eager and keen to make sure those interactions are started from scratch as often as possible.

                                    So what MEDIA Protocol does is allows you to create smart URLs using Blockchain. So you create a wallet, a smart wallet, you copy and paste your URLs and now you have a bit of JavaScript tracking on your pages. You put tokens into it. You say what you want reward people for liking, sharing. Sharing's very important ... reading. And how you want to distribute those tokens. Cause the real magic happens, not when X number of impressions are served or Y number of clicks per se, but when I find something online that I find interesting and then I copy and paste it, and I hit you up, lets say on WhatsApp, WeChat, LinkedIn, SMS, email, write it on a postcard to you, send you that link. And in performance marketing jargon we call that a dog social. That's where you lose control over what's going on.

                                    Now what MEDIA Protocol allows you to do, you actually say "okay, well here's the note that shared it, the person who's now coming back into it, we can now distribute those tokens". It brings a lot more clarity.

                                    Now from a consumer point of view- let's imagine I show you this link, let's imagine it's for Nike trainers. Nike have got some, like Primeknit is their brand, and I see them online, I share them with you, and then you happen to have some tokens again. Now, I get those tokens, but they're not just Nike token. I can take them and then spend them at VFT, or with Spotify, or maybe I could come onto the PPC show, watch a podcast and say actually I really like what you're doing here, and tip you or pay you for your content. It allows us to just completely redraw the diagram. Sorry, that is a bit of a lengthy introduction, but it is kind of exciting for us.

JD Prater:                     Yeah, and the main thing I got was you guys paying me to listen to the podcast. So, yeah. No, that sounds like really, really advanced. Really, really kind of cool. I liked how you touched on the advertiser wins, but also the consumer wins. I just wanted to kind of, almost go back. As an advertiser, performance marketer, we have heard Blockchain. You know, it's been around for a couple of years now. How would you define Blockchain, and why do you think that is so important as we move forward?

The future of blockchain technology

James Tabor:                Blockchain has become... Blockchain is another buzzword, certainly in the ad tech game. We've had Big Data, we've had AI, we've now definitely got Blockchain. Fortunately, I can't remember the truism, but we always overestimate the impact of a technology in the near term, and always underestimate the impact of it in our past. During the Big Data revolution a lot of people dismissed it as being out of hand after a couple of years, because they thought they weren't seeing anything. But, the work that we are now building and capitalizing upon with Blockchain would not be possible without Big Data.

                                    Blockchain is basically just a ledger of things that have happened. That is held in multiple places. If we think of it from an ad point of view, I tell you that I am going to pay you X for Y number of impressions, and that is now copied here and here, so you have entered into this as public. When the impression happens or a view happens, that gets stored in some metrics. So, it basically just removes argument.

                                    Now, that's Blockchain. What you can start doing with smart contracts and token models... so the Ethereum Blockchain which is the second most famous of the Bitcoin, has something called a start contract which allows you to basically create a token that says if you do X, as well as creating a record, I am going to give you Y. So I could enter into a smart contract with you, for example, that would say "I'm going to come and clean your windows, and you are going to pay me five bucks." We create a little technical oracle in there which let's imagine as a sensor, a little light sensor inside your house, and when I clean the windows it becomes that much brighter. That triggers it off and I get paid by that smart contract.

                                    We have Blockchain, we have smart contracts, and they don't run crypto. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the industry is already sick to death of people talking about Blockchain and then ranting on about is it technology. One of the things that I am very, very big on in my entire career is looking at business cases that you can tackle with this. Big Data was very much around the problem of people have got lots of solid information, everything is really difficult to access, how do we get more stuff and make it more accessible across entire organizations? AI has been about being able to go from predictor... even go from analytics full stop i.e. this happened, to predictive analytics which is if you do this, this could happen, to prescriptive analytics which is you should do this, and this will happen.

                                    You had to start with the business point of view of okay, well, we don't really know what we need to do when talking to our consumers, so let's try something new. Then, Blockchain, for us, has come in really as a missing piece of the puzzle, which is we know that the existing system is broken, we have taken previous models and put them online. I don't see any difference between Facebook or Google and a TV station or radio station in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s or a newspaper vendor, whenever. They have aggregated a massive audience and they made a business out of basically selling ad space. What they do not allow us to do, despite the wonders of the internet, is create direct to consumer relationship. That's what we can use Blockchain for.

JD Prater:                     Very cool. Whenever you kind of think through this direct to consumer relationship, I know that you kind of touched on this in the very beginning, but how do you see that unfolding? Let's just say from now and maybe five years from now, what do you think that is going to look like?

The changing relationship of direct to consumer content

James Tabor:                What we would like to see it look like... one of the challenges we have to do, so MEDIA Protocol has not been built as a set of applications or a set of SDKs and APIs, because we want to see everyone integrate them. We want to have major brands and publishers integrating this. What that means it is going to do is it brings the, it creates the entire audience and puts it at the fingertips of the content creator. I'm going to draw a little diagram, we will see if we can get away with this.

JD Prater:                     Yeah, go for it.

James Tabor:                Let's just try and do this. We have got... you have, we'll go with brand and content creator over here. I am going to have to make sure that I have my best handwriting on. We want to reach people. We are very, very interested in them finding out about what we have to promote or to talk about. Is that coming through okay?

JD Prater:                     Yeah.

James Tabor:                Now the challenge that we have at the moment, is we have the centralized entities who we have to basically send our content and our money to in exchange for an idea of what we might get back. They all claim that they do this.

 JD Prater:                     That would be the Facebooks, the Twitters, and the Googles of the world. Going through them.

blockchain technology

James Tabor:                Yeah, the centralized entity. They claim to own the network. They claim to be the only way that you can reach all these people. Now, what we are saying here is that actually with MEDIA Protocol, these still have a great roll to play. I mean, when you have the ability to access a billion potential people... I mean, I certainly can't make things in my Facebook appear to my Twitter feed.

                                    What we are going to do here though, is imagine that you have got... you create this, you put your content, you put it into this smart wallet - that'll be a picture of a wallet- and your content is always a URL. URL 1, URL 2, however many are in your campaign. You say that you want to share X percent, or give away X percent for reads, Y percent for likes, Z percent for shares. You put a bunch of tokens into these and what can happen is, you are still going to buy some ad space, but lets say it reaches person 1 over here. Person 1 clicks through, they get some tokens. They now do something really important, which is they share out here to person 2. They also share to person 3, but person 2 shares to person 4, and it goes onwards, and onwards, and onwards.

                                    What you are actually seeing is you are getting way more value, way better interactions coming to this piece of content then if you are just continuing to serve eyeballs and impressions. We can actually make sure that this person gets MEDIA Protocol tokens for their action, this person gets it for reading there, but then definitely gets more for sharing up to here. And so on, and so forth. Now, we are still Twitter, Facebook, Google, these guys are still making money. They are still getting allocated a share of what is going on. But we are actually activating the rest of the network. We are actually acknowledging the people who bring real magic to it.

blockchain and content tracking


                                    What these people are then able to do, as a brand or a content creator, fabulous you have acknowledged an existing behavior, you give them a reward. They can then go and redeem it elsewhere, and that can be for example a payroll like it gets paid out as a payroll. It could I suppose tip, or micro payment. What this allows us to do is to begin looking at a rebalancing. First, not only are we passing value down to the consumer, and the consumer is passing back interactions and data. We are treating the centralized data players as a node in the network, and not actually the network itself.

                                    I don't know about you and your audience, but I don't live on Facebook, I don't live on Google, I don't live on Twitter. I live across all three of them. When I share links, I can tell you if I find this on twitter, I might retweet it, but this is probably going to be a text, and that is possibly going to be an e-mail, and that might be a LinkedIn message, and that might be a WhatsApp, or a we chat. What we can do with the Blockchain is actually understand how it moves through the network and get far more clarity. Then the data can go back to you. Because the biggest challenge here, in the existing model, the data stops here. I always find I get prettier graphs when I am trying to buy and plan advertising online, then the analytics I actually get afterwards which are kind of like a "ha, yeah, some of this stuff happened" It's super cool, it's kind of granular, but doing attribution becomes kind of complex.

                                    What we can do with a token model is, in exchange for the tokens these people are actually sharing back interaction data directly to you as the brand or directly to you as the content creator. Now, that's obviously then up to people to be able to handle and interpret themselves, but as I touched on a bit earlier, the Big Data technology exists. The AI technology of these analytics exists and it's now actually a really good opportunity to start leveraging them. Hopefully that was kind of interesting.

JD Prater:                     Yeah, no, definitely. Whenever you kind of think about traditional advertising versus Blockchain, one of the things I always think about with a Blockchain is security. Where do you see these gaps right now within the security. I think we understand that Blockchain is really secure with the ledger, and it's going on both sides, and there is a public record of it, but where do you kind of see these gaps right now?

Current gaps of blockchain technology

James Tabor:                Well, the security of what is agreed or written into the Blockchain is great. The security of let's say, data, becomes a completely different question. On that diagram I was squiggling on all over there you actually have to have a hybrid model. I am not going to... nobody is implementing any blockchain straight to consumer relationship is going to put consumer data onto the Blockchain. While you don't have... if you are thinking about a land registry or a contract in this instance between me washing your windows, if we have go five or six thousand records or versions of that you cannot not pay me if I have washed your windows, and certainly I cannot demand payment if I haven't washed your windows. That's a great example of Blockchain.

                                    If we have written everyone's consumer data onto the Blockchain, we have created thousands of points of failure, as opposed to a point of failure. If we think about Cambridge Analytica and the issues that were occurring there, there was actually a single application that misused the Facebook API. That became a single point of failure. Let's imagine that that application was actually a Blockchain application and all its users actually had a record. Then you would have had 400,000 potential points of failure for everyone's data. You would have also had the world's biggest slowest application running possible. Blockchain is super secure. In a MEDIA point of view I see it as far more as a settlement player and a smart contract player than necessarily a straight up security player.

JD Prater:                     Got it. Okay, cool. What do you see as you kind of think through this, some of the limitations? Do we all have to buy-in to Blockchain for this to work? Is that really the limitation?

What are the limitations of blockchain technology for advertisers?

James Tabor:                Actually, not everyone has to. Where MEDIA Protocol sits, is we are kind of classified as the mass adoption player of Blockchain. You have got people who are building what we would call the rails, the high transactions per second. You have got people who are building various sort of market layers on top of it. What we are doing is we are building something that is not dissimilar to an HTML5 or PHP. It is something a developer can choose to integrate. This means that my grandmother is going to start using crypto currency on Blockchain without actually realizing what is going on. She is just going to see these little points start tallying up, and instead of maybe paying $17.99 a month for her audiobook, she might be asked to pay 20 MEDIA Protocol tokens because she has been sharing articles from Gardener's Weekly not necessarily knowing that they have been promoted, she is just having a positive behavior rewarded.

99% of people are never going to knowingly use Blockchain. They will be aware of it. I feel like 99% of people don't knowingly use AI. AI is not AI until... AI is only AI until it exists.

                                    What that does mean though is that we need to see a level of adoption across the industry. 99% of people are never going to knowingly use Blockchain. They will be aware of it. I feel like 99% of people don't knowingly use AI. AI is not AI until... AI is only AI until it exists. I was trying to talk to someone a few weeks ago about the amazing AI behind Google Maps and its ability to re-route me, and they said, "oh that's not very difficult, it's just a map." Okay. It is one of the most impressive live versions of AI I think you are ever going to see, but you can see right now you carry in your pocket. Of course, because it exists we are used to it. The mass adoption issue is very much about separating the technology from the use case.

                                    We talk to a lot of brands and marketers and people are desperate to have a better relationship, a more direct relationship, with their consumer's data. To have a better understanding of who is actually valuable to them, who is the most important person in this amazing network. You have a piece of content that starts and it goes out, and it goes out, and it goes out. Who is the person, or who are the individuals that are really vital to you? Because then you can make things more relevant, you can appeal to the sorts of knows and the application becomes super, super valuable.

                                    What we have started doing is just focusing on those challenges. We created something called Digital Future Counsel, which is a non-profit organization. We are very proud founding members of it. It is about the intersection of creativity, marketing, media, content and advertising, and technology. We brought a lot of people together, actually we did something in New York, we did something in London. We were at the Cannes press for media, we did something alongside there. The theme for the year was Blockchain. At the start of the day, of day one, there was a lot of "oh, Blockchain is a bit weird, it is a bit scary, I don't know if everyone keeps on telling me about it, but I don't know really what it is and what we need it for." What we were able to service over the course of two days was that marketers in pretty much every vertical and every type of business and every agency suffer or are experiencing similar problems. There is a couple of technological use cases where Blockchain can sit that they can start using it.

                                    That meant that suddenly the scary, sort of crypto nerds, of which I was kind of deemed a bit in marketing background, became less threatening and less scary because no one was actually talking about the technology. We were talking about, "well, if you are trying to do this, then actually you can just do this, and you can do that, and then you can create this." That's where we start beginning to see adoption happening.

JD Prater:                     Yeah. So advanced, it's pretty cool! What got you into this idea? What was that catalyst for you to kind of build the MEDIA Protocol to kind of understand this idea of kind of governance, but also marketing, and transparency, and ultimately a full economy kind of?

What was that catalyst to build MEDIA Protocol

James Tabor:                I come from a media and advertising background, and I'm the kind of kid you could probably sing me a jingle from the mid 80s and I will be able to complete it for you, tell you what the poster looked like, probably nowadays even explain what the print strategy was. I didn't know what a print strategy was when I was about six years old. I am a massive, huge, believer in the power of advertising, the power of marketing. My time in the industry, and then time building technology around it actually has driven us towards this. The rest of the team is actually pretty much the same. The rest of the founding team, we have all been doing different things in social Big Data and AI. We were kind of geeking out. We got into crypto moderately early, my pension fund hates me because I got into it and fell in love with the technology, not the asset class. But, you know, we need to separate Blockchain from crypto currency.

                                    We were kicking around some ideas, it was like two and a half years ago when we first met the team, and we were kicking around some ideas. AI was still super hot, GI was still super hot, we were building businesses around that. We are just noodling our heads around Blockchain and we felt there was something that we could do with it. Actually, one of my co-founders, Tom, one time we were sitting around going, okay, so content marketing is super important. I mean, you all know this, your audience knows this as much as anybody. You are invariably driving pay-per-click traffic not straight to the pair sneakers, but offers to a funnel of content about why the sneakers are so amazing. Then you go down, and you finally get this person to convert, because it allows you to create this relationship.

                                    We were thinking, what if we build applications where we can download and create a new browser, and then someone kind of went, but what if we just look at the URL. That was a massive light bulb moment, because if you say there should exist a decentralized network where people can create, share, and review content, that's what the internet was founded on. It was founded as a sort of way of peer reviewing information, and making a record of shareable information. The surviving standard was the URL. It could be any type of endpoint, it could be an IP address, something called IPFS address, but URL is the best way of looking at it.

                                    That's when a light bulb went off. We don't have to create a whole new set of infrastructure. We can create a set of SDKs that allow people to use it. Try and make it as easy as adding stripe to a new commerce stack. As opposed to saying no you have to delete this, and you have to get this. Could you imagine having to explain to your grandmother, that oh granny this amazing decentralized where you will get rewarded for your content. You need to delete this on your iPad. Yes, you press, you hold it down, yep we have gone through this before granny. Now you download this new one. Now get your piece of paper out and write down your 24 character, alphanumeric... oh, granny it has died.

                                    This just made no sense to us. So the light bulb moment was URLs. The biggest light bulb moment was SDKs and APIs, I mean, it is what we had been exposing micro services by for ages. The real big light bulb moment for us actually the open sourcer, let's make it a protocol. Because you cannot get this level of experimentation by claiming to actually have the answers and the ideas. That light bulb moment came from our CPO, Mark. We were in the office late one Thursday talking about the benefits of adversarial systems versus reinforcement systems. We are such cool kids, that was just what we were trying to kill some time.

The real big light bulb moment for us actually the open sourcer, let's make it a protocol. Because you cannot get this level of experimentation by claiming to actually have the answers and the ideas. 

                                    Mark pointed out that the biggest problem with reinforcement systems is that you can code bias into them. At which stage we went, we have written a lot of stuff into this smart contract, this CRC20 private guarded thing where we fixed X to this and Y for that, so we should really strip that out. Because I want to come to someone like JD and go, hey, across the sites that you work with we going to integrate this little thing. I want you to start experimenting with it, but by the way it is 5% of the reward has to go to people who share it. You go, but I wanted to make it 3.5% or 12% or maybe test it. We go, oh, oops we can't do that. So, we ripped all the coding out at which stage it wouldn't make sense to open source it. So, yeah. Three light bulb moments for us.

JD Prater:                     Wow, man. That's really cool!


James Tabor:                It's taken about 15 months to come up with a legitimate way of making this work. I'm sure you and your viewers and listeners who have been hearing a lot about Blockchain, but seeing a lot of people going, either existing business model plus Blockchain and going jazz hands, wow. Okay, well, you are not doing much apart form slowing it down. We thought it was a really great opportunity to just rip up the existing diagrams, or just redraw the existing diagrams, and start experimenting doing a community gram.

We thought it was a really great opportunity to just rip up the existing diagrams, or just redraw the existing diagrams, and start experimenting doing a community gram.

JD Prater:                     Nice. Well, let's get really tactical and a little with the application of it. So, with those listening, let's say that we are all convinced. Like, let's get into this. How can we get started and figure out how to get our smart URLs?

How to get started with smart URLs

James Tabor:                Okay, the best way is obviously reaching out to us. We have got a bunch of hybrid technology which we will blend in with it. If you want to go onto Github, we actually have got the code for the RC20 protocol, and actually a bunch of the use cases about how you go about implementing it. We are looking for people who are willing to start experimenting. We have already written out a bunch of APIs for building mobile applications on top of it. We actually created a demonstration application called CryptoCatnip, that's it's in both app stores. All it does is it hoovers the internet for crypto news, and then ran and we allocate tokens, and you can get an idea of the functionality to build on top of it.

                                    What we are really looking forward next is to actually speak to people like yourself and your viewers about what next to do with our web SDK. What sort of languages and stacks that people are working in in this space. We have been working on the publisher portal as well, because let's say everyone is convinced. You all want to start adding MEDIA Protocol to your URLs. You all start wanting to experiment with this. We have created an interface so that if you hold MEDIA Protocol tokens, you can go in, you can parametrize it, not dissimilarly to the way you parametrize an existing performance campaign. We don't need marketers to learn how to write so that it is easy to happen, because that is just a nightmare, I can't write selenium code. Yeah, the way to get going, we would just love to get some experimentation going. We would love to start hearing from members of you and your community about the challenges you face. As the... I mean you have been ahead of paid social?

JD Prater:                     Yep.

James Tabor:                You have been working across this space for a long time. What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced when it comes to attribution or understanding the sharing in your... let's interview JD briefly. What are some of the big challenges that you have faced?

What are some of the big challenges faced by JD

JD Prater:                     Sure, man. I think you nailed on a couple there with dark social. It's always tough when people are sharing content and you can't really see it. Or, if you are using Google analytics to understand that, that is coming in as direct traffic and you just can't see the source of it. You just know it might be working, but you may not know that it is working, right? I can't fully say something.

                                    I think another issue that we run into with attribution is really around device. You have these desktop, you have your laptop, you've got your mobile, your tablet, and it's still you but you are across all these different devices, so understanding what that looks like. Facebook Analytics are starting to help with that, but again you have to be on Facebook or have a Facebook login, so you are a little bit limited in that regard. Those are probably the biggest issues when it comes to actual attribution on the digital web, and we haven't even touched offline, word of mouth, and understanding how things are actually shared. That part is even more confusing.

Creating a soft wallet

James Tabor:                We kind of have got to solve the digital piece before we can start getting the offline piece really nailed. One of the jobs that you can do with Blockchain... so MEDIA Protocol the way the grain will get you a crypto is that we can create what is called a soft wallet in either web 3 or in the security claim of a smart phone. You can very quickly begin... which one of the things we are doing is making delegation easier. Instead of everyone having to be locked into Facebook, you just have this hashed id which is where your tokens happen to be going. Now, based on the interactions of the data you are gathering on that hashed ID, you are able to build up, I suppose, a turn at single customer view, an idea of what this person or this entity is actually doing based on their actions with you.

                                    We have got to resolve that usability issue, because we were talking about the number of hats we wear when we are online. Certainly that changes across all our different devices. I am a very different person on my laptop, then I am on my tablet, then I am on my mobile, then I am on my kindle. I am probably a different person depending on which tab of my chrome I am in. Those relationships become very, very complex. The amazing thing that I found, because having started my career in broadcast, selling billboards, selling posters, you got TAB in the states it's called Root over here. This is a probabilistic modeling of how consumers interact with billboards. I would argue it is more accurate than anything that I have seen for how consumers actually interact with digital advertising.

I am a very different person on my laptop, then I am on my tablet, then I am on my mobile, then I am on my kindle. I am probably a different person depending on which tab of my chrome I am in. Those relationships become very, very complex.

                                    We see that YouTube are talking to Nielsen, it happened for years, about how they can get YouTube looked at as the same as a TVR. Yet, I remember very vividly when YouTube first had it's ad team, them just pulling scorn on Nielsen and how could you possibly look at a probabilistic model to work out that 200 million had seen something based off 1,000 Nielsen families. You can do it. There is a... I believe we were talking about this as a bit of the show warm up, I believe that because of the difficulty of getting it right down to consumer level, we have become too enamored with bullshit metrics around granularity. Great content, great creative, is completely technology agnostic. It's always going to work really, really well, kind of no matter what. What we really struggle with is understanding what our consumers like and don't like, despite this flood of data that we get as performance marketers. The truism of "I don't know what 50% works" still rings massively true.

What we really struggle with is understanding what our consumers like and don't like, despite this flood of data that we get as performance marketers. The truism of "I don't know what 50% works" still rings massively true.

                                    We think about every performance campaign that we start with, we start and we have to AB test and optimize. There is not a person in the world or a person in the audience who can say yeah I can tell you every time when I start a campaign that I go straight and it's optimized to 100%. That is almost invariable because of this disconnect between the customer data and the people who are hanging onto it and not really sharing it. How do we move it around?

                                    We can get into offline attribution, because that's awesome. Offline attribution for me especially as a former billboard guy, the relationship between mobile usage and billboards is absolutely astronomical. As a call to action for "Google this stuff on your mobile" it is astoundingly effective. In the U.K., and I believe in the U.S., three biggest spenders on billboards now are Google, Facebook, and Amazon, and then Apple. So, that's the top four. That's four of the biggest brands in the world, four of the most technologically advanced brands in the world. They love the good old billboard. They then know, you get this amazing relationship with share of voice, share of mind. Then when we see something online, we see some content, we get into a funnel. We actually know what we are looking at.

JD Prater:                     That's a really good point to, I like that one. Let's kind of wrap up. This is, I'm sure, over everyone's head listening, but if they are interested in learning some more, learning more about you, MEDIA Protocol, how can they reach you and how can they learn more?

James Tabor:       that's I am on telegram as well, just JamesTabor, J-A-M-E-S T-A-B-O-R all one word. I respond to all of it. I am @sportingpress on Twitter and @media_protocol on Twitter. The fact that that this is out there, occupies this odd space in our brain as our team, while it's quite difficult to verbalize, it's quite a big concept that we are looking at. Anyone who is watching and listening who wants to dig in with us, start experimenting, start talking about some real use cases, we'd love it. It is going to help us begin to simplify down some of the language that sits around this.

                                    What we are trying to do is create a better internet, a better relationship between brands and consumers, a better understanding of what consumers are doing, a move towards relevance. Personalization has become a hijacked term for following me around with stuff I don't want to buy, which is a shame because personalization is relevance in it's own degree. Yeah, I'd love anybody to get involved and come and have a chat with us. I would love to hear from anyone who is working with the major platforms, because I believe they, I'm not one of these crypto anarchists all the middle men must die people, I firmly believe that social networks have a massive role to play, networks have a huge role to play, agencies have a huge role to play. As a collective, our entire industry is in a massive state of flux. One of the things that we try to create with MEDIA Protocol is an opportunity to experiment together on that future and try and see what happens.

JD Prater:                     Definitely. I can guarantee you we have got some high spenders listening right now that are definitely interacting with Facebook, and Google, as the main two, and I'm sure they can definitely give you some great advice, but also give you some really good use cases. For all those listening, please reach out, go check out their website is and you can also reach out to James, and I will include the Twitter and e-mail stuff in the show notes, so you guys can definitely follow up with him there. James, thanks so much for coming on and really kind of showing us the future of what it could look like and really breaking down these buzzwords as you called it, buzzword bingo. Understanding what does it actually mean to have a different type of internet and using the advanced technology that we have now.

James Tabor:                JD, thank you so much for having me and guys thanks for watching.

JD Prater:                     Alright, well, thanks everyone for coming on and being a part of this journey. We will see you guys all next week. 

AdStage Team